1:8 - You want to be a software engineer? University, Code Camp, or Technical Program? Alternate Ways to Get in the Industry

You are listening to diverse software engineers podcast, which inspires engineers to serve clients better, break glass ceilings and enjoy lucrative work. Your hosts are Eric Lau, Chief consultant at Brainy Butlers Solutions and Fatima Agheli up and coming engineer. We focus on the software essential skills which engineers, managers and clients need to upgrade their software projects.

Hi listeners to the diverse software engineers podcast. If I sound a little different, or if I sound a little bit less than my usual, excite itself, I have a bit of a flu. And it may go Whoa, is it COVID? No, I actually got tested yesterday. So it wasn't COVID which is some I will leave. And it's kind of a weird thing to say right? For the moment cheese, you'll do it. I would never imagine that to be that concern about gaming of fluid going oh my god, is it like something bad? Anyways, as much as I am a little bit a little wetter, not gonna make excuses. Because there is something really exciting. I read the other day Fatimah. us and he has an article about 100 best jobs. Now, the way they do this ranking is interesting because they use an employment rate, median salary, how hard it is to get in growth rates of the position. Software Developer is number two on that list. And you think about it, it makes sense. Why is number two on that list? It's one of the few jobs in this 100 less, that does not need a certification. You don't have to have a certificate, or some sort of a college that restricts admissions, even though it says education. Neither is bachelor's. There are people who can do well without it. I have a bachelor's but is not in computer science. My next guest is Matt Catallier. A doesn't have one either. That didn't stop him from getting into the career. And in fact, he used to be an instructor at one of the coding camps. So Matt, welcome to the show. Hey, thanks, sir. Yeah, happy to be here. So Matt and I have worked together before they a consulting firm, for a number of years. I will say that Matt is certainly have the aptitude for coding. What I found interesting is that out of those two jobs that pay well, a lot of them have a very narrow path have to get in, like if you want to be a nurse, you have to go to nursing school, right? That's it, you want to be a doctor, you have to go to medical school, and only so many positions in those schools. Fortunately, for all of us software development is not restricted like that. So I am very curious, not that you have made it like me that without going through a traditional bachelor's degree program. Matt, why don't you tell me a bit about yourself how you got to this field and go from there.

My name's Matt Catallier. I am a software engineer at four nine digital which is a digital agency here in Vancouver. I started my career in software development. around six years ago, I came out of bcit. I did a year long program there. What was called a software systems developer certificate. Yeah, I started out kind of doing freelance work. Going around to meetups and, and finding work on my own, which was really exciting. I was young and I was determined to have the flexibility of determining my own schedule and and also I liked the idea that I was working my for myself. For a while I did that and I was successful in that I was able to pay rent and do things pretty hard. Finding work and doing it and eventually paychecks came too far between that I was forced to kind of like do other things one summer. And I was actually like a foodora delivery guy. I was riding around on my bike at that same time I was still going to meetups and coding and keeping my skills up. I went to a chair Intel I guess they have they show all their projects. At the end of the program at lighthouse labs. All the students get to show off their like final term projects. I went and there was some pretty impressive projects and I got to talking to some of the faculty and teachers there ended up getting into Opposite mentor for that summer as well. So that was a great experience. I did that for a while continued kind of interviewing around local agents eventually wound up at four, nine digital. So that's kind of like a broad description of my, my path to where I'm at now.

So I was kind of curious what is lighthouse

lighthouse is like a what's called a code boot camp. And what they do is they teach people with varying degrees of knowledge in software development, they teach them every day for 30 days, five days a week go from zero to hero, you don't know how to for loop in the beginning, potentially. And in the end, you're building a project that's got like a database front end, and you're deploying it to Heroku. Quite impressive what they put these these students through.

So you don't even need any kind of experience center that.

I did see, like a wide range of people with different backgrounds. Some people were had careers and other industries, like there was someone that was like a chemist, I remember they, they worked in labs, there was people who actually had gone to university and had degrees that were coming to try and just get a job. And there was a handful of people who had no experience at all men just were interested, like out of high school, kind of so it was a wide range of people in the course, is there.

What would you suggest for someone who is very interested in the coding degree, but for example, doesn't have time to go for a four year degree? What would you really tell? Like? What advice would you give them if they still want to have like a coding career in the future?

I'd say it depends on the person. Some people are really self motivated and can take courses online at home, and learn everything there is to know about like software, at least at least to get that first job. That being said, like some people need, like a group of people to learn with, and to keep them accountable. Like I'm like that i'm i'm not going to finish things I start, like I've started 100 Udemy courses, maybe not 100. But I've started a lot of things. And unless I'm doing it with a group of people, and I'm like getting graded and stuff, I won't absorb as much start learning and just get started. And then if you need to take things to the next level, I definitely recommend looking into the various like boot camps. If you if you don't want to commit to a four year degree is there shorter programs at bcit. Or even just take like one of the intro courses, you know, like, go and get started learning, hopefully you'll find like people and make connections that will will get you to where you want to go,

Matt, can you describe to our listeners more about what is actually involved with a lighthouse program

Very rapid schedule, like they, in the first week kind of introduce you to for loops and like variables and start introducing you to like jQuery kind of older way of building front ends and JavaScript UI. And then the second week, there's showing you how to do node and build back ends. And I think by the end of the first two weeks, you've already helped front end and the back end together. I remember that bcit we did just for loops and variables and and like the basic constructs of programming for like a month or two.

I am curious now given how compressed it is, how many people actually make it frood in the program and be competent in coding

70 80% of them were able to keep up whether they absorbed it or not. I'm not sure there was usually three or four students. They were just like copying and pasting code in and just getting things to work not really making the jumps or like connecting the dots. I'd say those were the maybe the people that came in without any experience and like just were drawn to it, because they saw it in a top 100 jobs list. I think the people that did well were like, more scientifically minded.

Yeah, no, that that makes sense. I'm curious, because he said when he first went there, they were doing some showcase. Can you tell me more specifically, what are the stuff they're able to do?

The kind of projects they were able to do. And there's a wide range. Some of them were games, things like that. I remember seeing one it was basically like they have free range to do anything they wanted. Some of the ones that stood out to me were people built dreaming platform to watch videos with your friend. Basically They what they did was you could take like a YouTube link, you were able to watch it all together. And then people could talk and like, so they had like WebSockets to communicate, and things like that. That was a neat one.

That's interesting that in one month from from nothing, yeah.

So that is probably a group of people that a couple of them had a background in it, or, you know, had some experience and a couple were new. So

that was impressive.

Another really impressive one, actually, one of the other mentors who went through the boot camp, he set up a remote control car, it had like a Raspberry Pi or something on it. And you could go to a website, control it from the browser. So you'd go. And he actually, I never saw it. But like, yeah, you'd go and you had buttons, you could click, and it would drive around the room. And he has this funny story for the actual Demo Day. He got his friend in Arizona or something to come in. And they've been doing it all week, right? Like he'd finished it. And it worked great. And then on Demo Day, they come in, and he's there starts, he tries to get him to connect, and it starts driving, and then it just keeps going and like crashes into the table and like, stuff falls over. Like just crash and burn always on Demo Day. Right? So those are some of the cool projects. I think one of the neat things about it, those the teamwork guy was saying there's there's people with varying degrees of skill coming into it, they end up setting up teams of like people more experienced taking on maybe like a project lead role. And then some of the other people like doing more of like a junior dev kind of thing, the collaboration aspect is really key, as well. And that's I don't know, if get in university as much I think it's more individually. Yeah,

definitely in the in the programming classes have taken the finals tend to be bigger projects more than like individual, I'd say still most of the class is very much individual base stuff. So I think the programs you're talking about actually very interesting group experience, it gets probably very helpful compared to in university where you probably learn more independently, I suppose

I have to assume that source control becomes very important is that something that people just kind of copy files or they try to be a lawyer and get

they're not very early this week is learning how to commit to get and things like that. And actually, all the projects now that I'm remembering are just GitHub repos that they clone. So like from the very beginning, your cloning, I think you have to like set up a virtual machine.

Well, that was certainly a good amount information on Code Camp. And lighthouse, I think is part one of the better code camps. If you want to find out more about lighthouse, and how you can get into a career in software development, or engineering. Don't go away, we'll be back after these messages.

Celebrate your software projects or software careers by requesting a free 30 minute consultation. For details go to DSC podcast.com.

There are some people who believe that only certain people can code. I don't honestly want to say that everyone can code, I would certainly not necessarily say that you need to go through the traditional program and whatnot to be able to code. So given your unique experience, Matt, what would you say? Are the people that Matt or your mentor that you know, okay, they have what it takes to be a good developer or engineer, what are the attributes Do you think they all possess?

Yeah, that's a good question. Start I'd say most people are like, for some reason, intimidated by coding and like software development, because they see like your screen, and they see you writing like functions, and it just looks like gibberish to start. But like any language, you just have to understand the rules of it. It's more about like the problem. I'd say that's the biggest misconception about it is like, you have to be like really technical or like something like that. You just have to be determined or like, like, understand that. It's just the language in terms of like what you're saying, not for everybody. I saw that in Boris. There were some people that even after like Three weeks weren't able to like break the problems down. One of the qualities that makes a good developer is the ability to like, look at a big problem, break it into smaller chunks.

Yeah, certainly the ability to make something complex and break into simpler components matter for sure. Yeah. Last week, we recorded a episode where a Ben t he got in Microsoft, the kind of skills and things that Microsoft looks for, is very different than what these code camps train, I don't think most people who go from one of these code camps are going to be able to just go to Microsoft interview and get in No. But what I'm trying to say to people is that you don't need to go to Microsoft, you don't need there's so much there's 300,000 your jobs in the US alone for software development. And I guarantee you, Microsoft is not even close to a big chunk of that.

Yeah, and even if that's not your first job, you can work towards that and keep developing your skill set. Because like I've learned more in the last year than I did the previous year. And certainly more than I did in my time at bcit. And I think another thing that I didn't really mention is a lot of the kind of the soft skills, I think are what companies look for. So like I think a good thing that makes a good developers like communication.

you really, really want to wait for when the Issac Qiao interview episode comes out, because you're going to get a boatload of info from that base. He said pretty much the exact same things that you are, he just started Microsoft. So he will talk about the Microsoft interview process, we will actually have Isaac back. He's actually graciously offered to come back and get into the deep dive on the Microsoft interview process. Great. Yeah, I look out for that one. I but this is your this is your moment that I'm not gonna get into that anymore.

I was actually curious about bcit. And the program there. What exactly is the difference between like the bcit program, unlike a traditional four year program,

I say one of the things that's different is it's like one group that you go in with, and you take all the classes together, even though it's like longer than a boot camp. It's also it's not as in depth, a lot more practical knowledge. You're just building projects, and you're finishing assignments, you're not understanding why you're making classes or things like that, necessarily. It's just very practical,

I say so what would you say are like the pros and cons of taking a much more practical program like that

shallower depth of knowledge, but it can get you that first job where you really start learning and applying these concepts a little faster. That's, that's a pro, but it's also kind of a con, I was building these things that are fairly complex systems, software engineers had come to this after years of struggling with different pattern, I just like accepted it as the way to do things, I wouldn't have the same understanding of why they're doing this.

Yeah, I can actually answer some of that, because I've certainly Why won't you ever present the program? SSD? muted? So, so we have a lot in common? I sometimes I wonder what would happen if I realize I didn't want to do med school, and I just switched to computer science, if I just did computer science, because if I did that, I will probably have a much better chance of getting through Microsoft, or Google. And that's where I think the big differences is that if you do be sorry to do boot camps, it's not impossible. By no means. But you're really going to struggle with the coding, you really, really struggle. Those questions are specifically designed to test your theory and your fundamentals. Google and Microsoft don't care that you can build a website. They don't care that you get or or know how to use Docker ism, they really care about especially the first year Junior people get on board is Do you know the fundamentals that they can mold you to be able to whatever language you need you to do,

I've interviewed at Amazon twice at this point. The first one, I actually didn't get to the technical interview. But the second time through for nine digital I did say kind of like you're saying they asked me this interesting problem where it was like a farmer trying to plant seeds. And I needed to like set up a graph, do all these things at the same time just didn't have background in the knowledge of these algorithms to do it, despite studying for the week. But that's that's not enough time. Learn them, let alone apply them. So I think yeah, that's definitely one of the benefits.

I will preface this though. I don't necessarily agree with the way they filter people either especially On a senior level, because some of these questions are fine for junior, but if you're in the senior and you've worked on web development of certain aspect for years and years, pay your possible not. For example, I do mostly front end development. And for the last five plus years, if you ask most likely, I need to build linked lists double reverse linked lists on know if I see somebody tried to do 101 of my projects, I'll be like, what are you wasting your time? Yeah, where's the library that does this for me? I have done those questions. I can do intermediate and seem in some of the heart ones. I've done that. But like, he's one of those things. Where are you taking me months? Just to get back into it? Because not because I couldn't do it before. But because he just something that you don't we exercise?

Yeah. I think though, going back a bit like the reason they asked those questions is not necessarily to even see if you can finish it. They want to see how you approach it, how you break it down. So like if you haven't done that link listing in a while, approach the problem and like, show them how you go through it. And then you nail all the other parts, like that's not going to stop you from from getting the job. I

don't know about that Amazon, Microsoft talk to no way you're expected to know those things. I'm just gonna say, Alright, maybe I'm just being hopeful Are you are you're definitely expected to know, they set the bar pretty high. And they know they can because they set the salary accordingly. Right. So to answer your question, I know it's a little bit roundabout, but it's very important for the full contract. There's a reason why the median salary is less than 107,000. us and Salvador, that median is quite huge. Like I'm seeing people who would do basic CSS coding on some of the most very scripted type stuff, or do maybe 40 50k, right to start. And then there are there are software developers, for example, if you are the Google engineer who programmed the search algorithm, you're the top guy, the struggle, I bet you he makes easily three hundred thousand. Easy. Yeah, I wouldn't blink. But the numbers are like that, when I say software engineering, and there's a huge range. And I think the reason I'm bringing this up 107,000 is still a lot of money per year. If you want to aim for the top, and you are good enough, you want to aim for the top to go to Google to build the next AI, the next nanotech or the most cutting edge stuff, then yeah, you you, I don't see how you can do that without a lease of Bachelor in a top university, especially going to masters and doctorate computers are everywhere. Nowadays, in so many industries, in so many different users. And every time you need some machine to do computation, you need somebody to code that machine. And that's why software development is projected to be in demand for years and years to come.

What's something that I can do, and I can do it for a long time and make good money, like solve interesting problems, but I'm not going to break my back doing it or not be able to do it when I'm you know, 50-60 years old.

A lot of the software development jobs that do not need you doing things that Google Microsoft expects of you to get in those jobs, it really helps to have some practical skills, I want to hire someone, let's say a insurance company wants to build some sort of interactive thing to shop for coke. For example, if I want a hiring manager, I don't really care that you know all about link lists and about how to dissect the fundamentals of programming. But I want to make sure that you know how to build website how to use node and all these JavaScript, that's

very true, I'd say the majority of the apps that I've built have been taking some process that somebody does manually either on paper, or like physically going around collecting data and just making it online. So like, I'd say, that's most of the work that's out there.

Just because you're Google or Microsoft doesn't mean that your job is the most challenging or the cutting edge. I've seen plenty of people who build websites, that means Microsoft, these websites to your body's needs to handle maternal processes, and whatnot. So there's no guarantee there's just because you're in there that you are getting the cutting edge work. And some of the smartest people I know in computing are actually not in those because they don't like working for big companies that where you feel like you're a cog in the machine.

Maybe you're not doing that at Microsoft, but you're certainly making that Microsoft money if you're there

money is one thing, but I like I said I've known people who went got in Google, Microsoft, and they left, and they are glad they left. They wouldn't take a pay cut, sometimes not even sometimes they take it not even on paper, but sometimes even they did. Some people are happier from those out later on the interview one such individual. So I want to make that point very clear to the listeners out there. It's not like your second right. If you're Not in Google, they like to think that way. But I don't necessarily agree with that. Some of it is, I wouldn't say hyper certainly is because of the salary and their stringent process, they certainly give off that perception

for someone who can't relate really wanted to get into a company like Microsoft or Google or anything like that. And they couldn't like they couldn't get through the interview or for whatever reason they couldn't. What would you suggest for them to do after that?

I don't know. I guess I would just say to them, like, what is it you find fulfilling about your job? Like, what is it you wanted to get out of that, find another place, you could do it, because it's not the place you work that makes what you do? Interesting. It's the things the problems you solve, and people you work with. If you wanted to build AI, and help Microsoft figure out the new greatest thing, just like find another company that's working in that field, go learn as much as you can about it. And if you want to, in a few years, go back and Ace that interview.

That's the beauty about our industry like this. One is that there's so many jobs in so many different challenges. Not getting in one of those doesn't mean a whole lot. In fact, some of the most interesting postings I got are usually people who are from Microsoft x, Microsoft x Amazon, who started their own thing, they would jack the culture, and the big corporate thing. And he wanted to do something that matters fact, there's more likelihood that you do something that don't matter, or things or you work your butt off. And and then when VP says, Oh, I don't want this anymore, this is a fit more, and I want pivot. All projects get scrapped. I've seen that.

Yeah. So then I would ask you, do you think that they would have the skills and the the prestige to go out and start like what people gravitate to their new ventures if they hadn't had that experience at one of those, like top five companies or whatever.

First of all, you have to understand, there are only so many people who worked at those top companies, and didn't even close to the amount of jobs are needed. So you've used a new company starting out, and you don't want to have to flush with cash and whatnot, you can't afford it. You can't just go and say I will only hire Amazon or Microsoft employees, you have deadlines, you have X amount of money, you have X amount of time, being quick to market is very important. So you can't just afford to just sit around and hope the the story of developer will just land on your lap doesn't stop some companies from trying. They will ask for the moon. unrealistic expectations, certainly a problem in this industry. You don't want to set your expectations on something like oh, I will get into Microsoft or Google. I don't think that's a good goal to set. you're chasing money, you're chasing the title in the prestigious your first job out of the gate, you should just get some experience some experience better than none. The difference between a year and a half versus zero is massive.

Speaking of first jobs, what would be like a really beneficial for someone who wants to like learn a lot about programming, the more on the field instead of in classes

Ideal first job? That's not a very good question. Pay, I would not be one of the things I look for as long as not like slave labor conditions, again, aren't like be asked to break laws, the most important thing I would say is you need to be able to build something that people use, What you don't want is a project that you can tell the employer doesn't care is not important, and no one's gonna use some projects. Sometimes things get political. So you want something that will allow you to build these preferably take it from start to finish, you are responsible for building something from the conception phase all the way to the deployment phase. And that why me You're free to chime in. Would you agree with that?

My first job was building front end for an app, I set everything up. I think you saw some of the code or that was like, like the first Redux app I'd ever built. And then you came in. And we were like, what, why are you doing this? Yeah. So like, it's really cool being able to do that to see how some businesses process works. Because if you go for a company that's too small, there's no real process and you just kind of do what makes sense to you. As someone who jumped around and did a lot of freelance work. I haven't really participated in like a larger company with a setup for like reviews and like this is what we do for deploys like I've always kind of just decided that with my manager, which is nice, but like, that's something missed in my early parts of my career, getting that straight. Sure to understand like, this is how it company runs

Your first job, you may not have an option to be that picky. Sometimes you go, oh my god, I have bills. Living at home with your loving parents and a good family home, then sure, take your time. But even then I wouldn't say take six months, take nine. I wouldn't even say that. Because if you wait that long, you skill smooth degrade, something's better nothing. And unless you're getting red flags, that maybe the place is abusive, right, maybe as a portable culture, which by the way is I feel that most people don't not ask nearly enough about the company culture. And companies as to candidate fit their culture? Well, I feel like the reverse is also extremely important. If you want to be successful at that company, the company culture has to be congruent with your values, otherwise, you're going to hate it. They're not gonna look favorably upon you. Maybe

you're right. That's what you do at your second job a little more. First one like, Oh, you go in and it doesn't work out. It's also best to look for jobs when you have a job. Because you get this confidence. You're not as desperate.

Desperation shows; Dating, same thing. If you met a person. If that person comes to you and says, Please be please date me I got no one else. No one want me boy, you know, you run for the hills, right?

Yeah. Are you saying go out and date people when you have a girlfriend? Is that what you're saying?

No, no, no, no, say no. I'm just saying that if you have a sense of desperation, where you just you have to have one. You get one right now?

Yeah.

No. I have a wife and I see Yeah, no, of course not

Don't let her hear this one.

No, no, no, no, of course not. Well, no, but Well, first of all, I mean, there are some of the differences, right? You are allowed to look for another job while you have a job. That's perfectly fine, that you're not allowed to say do for your girlfriend's situation. But emotional desperation matters, right? You don't really want to put yourself in a situation where you cannot tell your boss to fuck off. That was one thing I said. That was one of the best advice I ever got. Because if you were in that position, you're gonna have trouble finding the work, you're gonna have trouble getting your race. People can sense desperation.

I guess we're talking a lot about red flags. And you said something about look for a company that has a purpose. When you want to find a job. I was gonna ask like, what are some red flags that you should avoid?

One of the questions I would love ... I wish people would ask more about their employer. First of all, when at the end of the interview, when they ask you, do you have any questions? Please, please never ever say you don't have any questions. That is not a good sign as an interviewer, that is not a good sign if you don't have any questions. Because if you do have any questions it tells you that you're not serious about the job or you don't really consider yourself being there. Because of jobs, one of the most important decisions for a person, you're going to want to ask questions. So that's number one right there. You want to ask questions. And one of the most important questions I would ask, how would they handle conflict? Now the questions I've been asked on candidates all the time, but I would ask a manager about how they dealt with a difficult employee Be specifically, how did they deal with difficult employees What happened? Or tell me what you have to do when you have to fire someone. Turns it around, it puts them in a position where they have to get into the specifics on revealing who they are, the leadership style. Your manager matters a lot. You have a crappy manager could be lights out miserable for you. I can easily tell you the worst manager I've ever had. The worst manager I've ever had was this one place, which I will not name, but it's a very small company you'd have about four or five developers in it. My manager there was so terrible because there are multiple times where I purposely asked him what should I do? He will say A I did A and I show him the work, he said "Are you stupid? I asked you to do B What is wrong with you?". Just flat out said that

Brutal

Multiple times. I call them straight up line out said the opposite thing and blamed me for

I didn't know employers could even or like managers could even insult you like that.

Yeah, I guess you just start recording the conversation be like no, no, here you go.

At that time it wasn't that easy recorded. The iPhones were not around when I can't just put my Apple watch right. Yeah,

there's still people and there still are a lot of assholes out there. I haven't had to deal with I've had a lot of great managers and mentors, so I don't really have any bad horror stories, thankfully.

Oh, yeah, I had that story. And I didn't last very long after that, because at that point, I was most desperate to get out of there. I pretty much took back my old job when they were available and just left because it was absolutely horrible. The owner just refused to believe me.

Wow, what the fuck?

Yeah, the interesting story. Part of the story was after I left, the next guy who stepped in, I had the same treatment, he corrobated. This guy did exactly the same thing. But this time, the owner believed him. And the mod guy, I call him S, demoted from management back to just a developer. There's a bit of a, I guess, a poetic justice to it. Because years later, when I was manager at AutoTrader, I saw an application. And sure enough, that S guy apply to all the trainer. I'll take the interview. And I told my my fellow manager the stories and they do like oh my gosh, just to see his face. So I took it. And then at the last minute, the guy said, Oh, he's no longer coming in.

Too bad.

But oh my god, I would love to see his face when he sees me being the interviewer. It sounds almost comical sometimes I would tell that story and people go, Nah, this can't be true. I'm like, 100% I swear to God, it is true. So you want to hazard a question about one of the red flags. That's a big one, right? You want to make sure that your boss Listen, and it's a good communicator, if they ask that of you, you need to ask the same of them. Look, the way that the body language? Are they engage with you or they always being cold? I've had one interview where the guy's like, had to leave like three times in the middle of the interview. Oh, oh, yeah, someone got Oh, I got to take care of this. And where was this interview again. I walked away going I there's no way I'm working there. Even if they gave me the offer, I wouldn't take it. But I know for a fact that they don't take the time as a manager, making sure that your subordinates are doing well. And having that relationship with them. It's not part of your job is your most important job. So if they have if they are showing that poor communication skill During a interview, the company will see like their firefighting all the time. And they might also be exhausted, maybe that's not the best place. what to look for interview that cues us whether the company is a good fit for you. That's a whole topic on its own. We can probably do two or even three episode just on that. Thank you, Matt, so much for your time. We actually ran a little bit over time. But I again, you know, thank you so much for being here. And, you know, sharing us with us your experience.

Yeah, yeah. Thanks for having me. It was great talking with you and Fatima. And

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