1:6 - Fatima 1-on-1 with mentor, session 1

You are listening to diverse software engineers podcast, which inspires engineers to serve clients better, break glass ceilings and enjoy lucrative work. Your hosts are Eric Lau, Chief consultant at Brainy Butler Solutions and Fatima Agheli, up and coming engineer. We focus on the software essential skills which engineers, managers and clients need to upgrade their software projects.

What do you want to ask me about software engineering, about career in general?

When it comes to my career, I'm not 100% sure if I like what direction I should go with software, because specifically, I want to do something more in like game design. But that's why I'm going into programming because eventually I want to like design games. I want to be more like the artistic half, you know, but I also want to be able to like code for games as well. So I don't know what direction to go. Exactly.

Well, here's good news. I didn't know either, right? I told you before, like I was in pre med, till about second year university. And when I said I can't handle it, I'm not doing this anymore. I switched to an art degree in communication. At the time, I was thinking, oh, maybe one point actually, well, I consider actually becoming a public speaker. I was in Toastmasters four, plus years. And I remember, I always remembered, you go back to the unsolicited advice. I remember the very moment that I realized that I do not want to be in that industry. I can tell you exactly what happened. I was in one of those self help type of presentation slash like workshops, her thing, this person walked on stage. And she said that they are not even those experiences. And I see that I have a doctorate on life. And I swear when I heard that, like I have to like put my jaw, pull it back up to my mouth. And I just walked out of that presentation. I walked out because I could not believe that someone had to go I don't even know what word to describe the clear herself a doctorate like we're not talking about Dr. Dre here. It's not like your your rapper come over nickname. Okay. Speaking in front of a crowd, I have a doctorate. That's insane. I just walked out and I go, Oh, you know, I can't do this. I want to tell all the listeners out there that it's okay. It's okay not to know where to go. A lot of people that I know their career path, they're not in a straight line, this whole idea that I know I'm gonna do this. And then a few years ago do that. And then A, B, B to C to D. that I don't think I've I'm trying to think Have I ever met anyone who actually went that route? No, like, I don't think I have actually. It is so so much pressure to ask someone at 19 or 20. Or what do you do with life? How are we going to get there? And we ate like a big bang, right? Maybe if you're Tony Hawk, right? If you don't want to be a pro skater, okay, fine. But yeah, LeBron James, I know want to be a great basketball. He's such an insanely amazing,

like, hated about like, the end of high school, like every single adult there was just kind of be like, oh, what are you going to go into? What are you going to do? What are you going to do? It kind of felt overwhelming, because like, I don't have a very good idea of what I'm going to do you know,

and people say marriage is a big commitment. In a marriage, you have a chance to date someone for five years or seven years, whatever, any pretty good idea what a person is, before you get into a career, you ask you like, like they go into a program that says that's what you got to do is not absolutely ludicrous to me that we ask these questions of millennials and younger, but it boggles my mind. I mean, I used to believe that to have this oh, you know, maybe I maybe shouldn't buy that much because I've been there, but I certainly would not ask my my son I question enough not not to be not to do it. Ah, I can certainly assure you that not knowing is okay. Yeah. What I think is more important is that you do the best you can in your whenever you do because changing careers happens. I remember I hire engineers to write like I was a manager for a number of years. So I certainly have asked me Canada have changed careers and that's fine. What I what I look for though is that you do the best that you do, right? You don't just coast or you just like, just don't care. Sometimes we have kind of come in and go, Okay, I know that you just like you're looking for a job, or career for 15-20 years. And that's okay. But while you're here, I do expect you to give your best You understand? Yeah, yeah. So what was your takeaway from all four? I just said,

you don't have to always know what you want it. Like where you are right now. You know, like, I think I'm still kind of shocked by what you said that that what that person said, I don't think anyone can really reach that stage ever in life. Or at least, it's not very common to reach that stage, where you just know exactly like, have a doctorate in life, like, you know what you're doing.

She's definitely older, right? She's not 20, more in her 40s and 50s. Like, so. So, so let's a little bit of context here. But even to declare some, like the doctorate, I just said, You know, I just don't want to be in that industry where I have to make that type of grandiose claim, don't get me wrong, she's pretty successful at it, like she's definitely gets gets a lot, you know, gigs and endorsements and whatnot, because maybe they are, they're people who are attracted to that. And she could sell it. But I just don't I know, I don't want to be I can't do that. And I have a gut like, I just wanna hurl like, I want to throw up.

Yeah.

You know, in that moment, right. So I knew I couldn't do it on my while you do something else. And, and of course, I want to go back to a software development. And I think that's okay. If you want to get into game design, could have just put a video game game design in the career path. ncvo we get out somebody in the gaming. And by the way, the only listeners if you know, if you're a gaming developer, you know, somebody who talked to us about how you get it, it'll get to be in the gaming industry was like the big game designer, a game developer, certainly, please reach out to us, we'd love to have your own podcast, I will say though, is this that even if you are not, you don't say want to code like for long term, you can code even if you just do the basic level, there's certain level of respect, I would say a certain level of credibility, which I think is very important. Because you're not the first one who asked you that question, like I noticed was like somebody that you know, person, like recent memory. His name's Eric. Yes. Like he wants to be manager. Okay. Yeah, really, rancher is fine. But usually, when you manage a group of people, you have to have some understanding what they do, right? Like, even if you learn all that organizational behavior and all this technique, you have to have the respect of the people that are under you. They got to look at you. And they will say, Okay, do you know this? You know, this, they don't then want you to tell me how I should do things for you to evaluate me. So I'm not sure I'm getting the unsolicited territory. You're free to tell me if I'm getting there.

No, no, I think it's all relevant. Yeah.

Simon Fraser has a career fairs, right. I think so. Yeah. Have you been to one of those?

I've walked through one but I haven't like actually interacted with anyone there.

I want especially I'm pretty sure Electronic Arts (EA) has something like that, where they have a booth there? I'm pretty sure they do. Just don't ask them. Right. Ask them like, you know, how we get industry and whatnot and things like that. And that will help. So that's one thing I will do we get more information. Also, the other thing I would say ns ns. And I saw alluded to that you don't necessarily have to be like gaming, like just go straight to gaming. But you have to show that you've done best effort. I want to explain a little bit more in a concrete way, if you own in university, get a degree, but at least get to that point. And the reason I say that is that, you know that there's different schools of thought, right? Some say all university degree, it's either we need it and you already know coding camps are better and or cell types better. Some of the best people are self taught. Okay, it's not one size fits all, I'm sure that listeners can back me up is that even a lot of the executives or CEOs, whatever, let's say that, oh, you'll need a degree. I didn't get it. myself or even Bill Gates, you know, like somebody he he's a college dropout or whatever, right? You say who say that? Sure. But if you go to their website, go to Facebook, go to Microsoft. And you go to the the job postings, I will guarantee you that almost all of their positions in software engineering and whatnot, are asked for degree. There's a big difference in what people say and and what people do you want to get that degree. Can you agree, Hey, you know what, that's not realistic, or you just just don't know why we're in it. That's fine. But no one's going to tell me that green means nothing is completely unimportant. I certainly would be insane of me to tell that to a university student but you always want put your best foot forward best effort to help you tank a university education. That's as bad advice. And I have seen people give advice like that. And I call them on that. There's one person that there was telling on a, on a LinkedIn telling a group of students, high school students, that their CTS are important. Again, I just dropped my jaw moment and I go, You can't be serious to give advice like that, to tell people to not study what what you need. Are you literally telling them not to study and and just throw it away? Just his sticks are very clear on this that lack of high school or don't do a high school? No, we don't post. So post secondary, your prospects are automatically lower. Take a percentage. There will always be people who succeed. Without that. That will always happen. Yeah, definitely. Would you want to roll the dice? That you're you're one of the exceptions. The Eagles on the last episode of unsolicited advice by biology like I get allergic now like I get I get like I can see my skin's over like, like get itchy. Yeah. So I

actually thank you for the area that I'm going towards. I think computer science is more my thing than engineering.

I'm actually want to ask you that question. I think I may have asked this. But I need to ask you in more earnest? What is the difference in their IQ? Is engineering more hardware? Like? Like if there's a

because I haven't done anything computer science myself, so I can't judge it. But it seems that computer engineering is hardware, more hardware, while computer science is more soft, for example, yeah, like circuits, you're not gonna learn circuits in computer science, because you don't really need it there. But for a computer engineer, since they will kind of like work with the actual hardware of a computer to that's where that's where circuits actually kind of need it. But I think for the kind of career paths that I want to go down, I can't imagine ever needing ever needing circuits. You know,

you sound pretty sure that you want to go into gaming. I mean, that's,

I mean, yeah, definitely like gaming, or at least the design portion of gaming.

Have you talked to your advisor or some supervised about going to computer science, like it's

different to programming courses next semester, because they're transferable? A little bit, I need to be more competitive.

Oh, so it's actually more competitive in the science because

getting into a new degree in general, no matter what is going to be a little competitive, because like, for example, when I was applying for computer science and computer engineering back when I was in high school, I think they're both very competitive. At that point, I had like a very competitive high school GPA. But in university, I, I let my GPA fall over, because I was like, I'm gonna take it a bit more slow, because there's nothing really to you know, like, I don't really have to fight to stay in it. But now I once again, I have to have a competitive GPA to get into a different degree. Because that's when they start, you know, like to swap any degree. Yes, you do need like a higher GPA to get in again. And you don't quite have it

at this point. Is that is that my Yeah. So could you have gone down to computer science right away from high school,

they accepted me to both computer science and computer engineering right away. But

because Computer Engineering was my first choice, they put me there is less about what courses you take. As long as you get a degree. I'll see my get lab. Somebody's been gaming in through the podcast. Actually, I do know but I haven't I haven't talked to this person in like five plus years. He's actually at the rector. Yeah. Well, I think what I was General I get was, and this is pretty common and other instruments. Remember, I was in the management and for a while, that if someone presents to be computer science was Computer Engineering, I don't think I would have cared either way, you know, if you can switch great. If you don't, it's I wouldn't put a ton of effort into it. What I would focus more is, well, I'll give you two things. One is you need to make yourself stand out. So how do you stand out from the crowd? And one is actually is what you're doing right now me being the podcast because shows initiative, right? It shows that you hear about this industry you want to be in and you want to do things that other people don't do right. So about their to sock, I talked about the wall right? The walls are there for a reason. It was that easy. He wouldn't get the wages as software engineers get. There's got to be difficulty otherwise it's not lucrative profession, you understand the to go hand. So you need to stand out even yourself in the crowd, talk to expert interviews and other software engineering field that will help a lot. I have an entirely new episode on how I got my first development job and and I had to really struggle because I graduated software program right in the middle of campus in 2003. It was really hard to get a job development job because everybody's laying people off. Who you know matters a lot. I know a lot of people have said it. Some people said all software engineering only crying out for people to love hasn't changed who you know, and having them. Look at you as a person they've seen they'll they've heard versus just a name on a piece of paper. I don't think I can overemphasize how important that is. So that's number one. Number two is get mental not one, get as many as you can be a great start, you have myself as one, I will encourage you to reach out further than that. Get. Preferably get one that's in InDesign, that may not be possible, but you should at least give it a college try. How do you meet people like that? Is meetup now nowadays is a pandemic it is virtual, which is a shame because there is still no substitute for seeing people I only see your face You see, there's a you shake their hand? Is that still the best way to really make it? Yes. By the pandemic, hey, you know, you, you gotta gotta adapt, right? So great article, all the meetups. Now virtual, which means some ways be actually better for you. Because you don't have to actually physically go downtown, certainly go to meet up and look for gaming industry. Like there's a bikini industry meetup or something about working video games, and whatnot. Get on that, get on that group and show up show a couple of sessions. Don't just go to go one and done. You want to go at least couple times, so that people will see you as a regular participant. And once you become regular participant, then you can, you know, broaden your regions are asking your question about what it's like sometimes just straight up ask, you know, I like to be industry working. Where should I go? Or would you like to be my mentor? He could be that there's a reason why people set up meetups right. They want to help they want to share knowledge and have that camaraderie.

So yeah, I will definitely try to look into advice from people who are more in the industry or like in the game design kind of area. I grew up probably should look into that as well.

I would start listen to more podcasts because I know for a fact I'm pretty sure there is a podcast for video game designers.

Oh, really?

I am I am almost positive. The sheer volume and mouse stuff out there. It's Yeah, it's quite a bit. I would honestly look for that long shirt. Haha. me doing that. Again. If I make a suggestion that you get check it out and see we can find a podcast that you like that talks about a subject you can even asked them to be on their podcast or ask them to b2b on our podcast podcast love to support other podcasts because a rising tide lifts all ships.

Okay. I think I am gonna look into other podcasts definitely listening to them.

Absolutely. It helps you at least three ways. One is it helps you to be better hosts to communicate better, which by the way, is critical to getting a job interview skills as a interviewer as an interviewee examples are asking questions about conflict that you had or well sometimes you get unsolicited advice or how do you deal with that? How do you have co worker that are to work with like you have to be right answer those things in the interview, you will get asked those questions. Number two, there are a few things that a podcast person holds. And I guess I would love more than having listeners that want to engage with you subscribe to and engage with them. They will love to help you out the very act of listening right to the podcast you learn about his industry, right for me what you know what what is the day to day role play or a question you want to ask these podcasts? Maybe they are? Maybe they already have an episode that covers that. I think that's a good point to end as your mentor type of a segment. Why won't you tell me what your action plan is? What are you planning to do?

Yeah, I think I'm definitely gonna look into other podcasts first, you know, like looking to, especially game design ones, hopefully, maybe I can even ask them questions if they have any ability to ask questions to them. And then I guess I'll have to look into cool. Now hopefully, I was trying to get it maybe next semester, if

not the semester after you're going to go do that. And maybe, let's say in two weeks, I will ask you how it goes. And you can share with our listeners on how it went one way or what I've done and find out if it works. If it works. our listeners love to hear about it. If it doesn't work, that's also good information to write. Good way to go. Anything else that you want to address tonight.

I think that's about it. I think we've covered a lot today and I think it was all pretty good.

All right. Well, thank you. All the listeners out there.

Thank you Merci.

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